What made you leave Shincheonji?
Hi I would like to know what are the reasons (or defining moments) that made you leave SCJ? Any teachings you found wrong or bad experiences? And what advice will you give to current members who are considering leaving? Thank you
#What bothers me about SCJ
[I wrote while still being part of the church, therefore I sometimes in using “we” I mean “members of SCJ]”
I don’t believe SSN is the promised pastor sent by Jesus.
He claims perfectly sealed, to be able to understand and interpret the whole Bible. I think the Bible is an imperfect Book that cannot be interpreted in coherent manner.
So here are some points that contributed to my decision to leave:
The Motto of this year (2020) and the last year included “Creation of the Multitude in white” “Completion of the creation of the multitude in white” but there wasn’t any specific Tribulation back then. The Great multitude has to come out of the great tribulation and wash their robes in the blood of Jesus (Rv 7:14). There was no recount of any great tribulation back in 2019 then so no justification to say that there was a formation of the great multitude.
One could argue that we still had more than 144’000 members therefore logically some would be part of the great multitude regardless of the fact that there wasn’t any great tribulation, or that the great tribulation should indicate a more general struggling of the church that is taking place.
If this is so then the COVID-19 pandemic shouldn’t be called “the” great tribulation but part of the great tribulation.
2. This point is personal speculation (a part from the argument that royal blood shouldn’t be important to God nowadays). I don’t think the miracles in the youth of SSN are real. I don’t believe his claim of royal blood, and even if he was of royal descend there is no reason that it should matter. If the miracles in his youth were real why did he stop experiencing them (A part from the mysterious lights he claims some people see over him)? If they actually happened I would expect them to happen even to this day since they seem to bring validity to his claim to be the flesh through which Jesus and God are nowadays working in this world.
At the time of Jesus the physical seed was important, since it was the only way to be part of God’s chosen people. Jesus was a descendant of King David. But we also teach that: “Adam was created from the dust, and after Adam sinned, all the people of the earth became sinners born of the genes of a sinner. However, Jesus was born of God’s seed through the virgin Mary (Lk 1:30-35).” (From the article “The Sons of God and the People of the World”). Se here the justification is that Jesus is born of the seed of God and not the seed of man, his royal lineage isn’t that important, but MHL insist he also is of royal blood, even though we don’t know anything about his claim.
3. The 144’000 should already be sealed.
We have multiple “After this”, I would reflect on the following one Rv 7:9 “After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.”
In Rv 7 John sees the 144’000 sealed at the beginning of the chapter then “After this” he sees the great multitude in white. This means there is no great multitude before that the 144’000 are sealed, otherwise it would be impossible for John to see people that don’t exist yet. Maybe one could point out that it is an ongoing process, but this means that the “After this” aren’t so important after all.
Either the 144’000 are sealed or the “After this” DOES NOT always indicate an ordered sequence of events.
In case you don’t believe this argument for saying that the 144’000 are already sealed according to the teachings of SCJ I would like to point out that at the beginning of the chapter (Rv 7 verse 1-4) that the 4 angels are holding back the winds of judgment, they are told to hold them back until the 144’000 are sealed. On the 21.06.2020 during service the John tribe leader explicitly said that the winds are blowing. They were also blowing on the chosen people.
This means the winds are blowing, this means the 144’000 are already sealed.
At this point the question is who are they? Why are they not being revealed?
In my opinion it is because people would leave if it would be revealed that a part are already “chosen” because some people wouldn’t be happy with being part of the great multitude.
It is possible that the sealed people are being revealed right now, they are the people that won’t fall away during the tribulation. But I don’t understand why this important argument of the sealed people is never mentioned in articles or in sermons.
4. To me it doesn’t make sense to sing the Korean national anthem at the graduation ceremony. We claim to be one and we claim to transcend boundaries of religion, politics and state, so why should we support one nationality so actively?
One explanation is that God had to start his new kingdom somewhere and that it isn’t an accident he chose Korea to do so. But nonetheless if we want to become one with the whole world we can’t keep on going to put everything under the Korean banner. It is not realistic “but with God everything is possible” true but why then bother doing any work at all? I mean if everything is possible through God and we decide to go against logic common sense and reason in trying to unite the world we could just lay back pray a lot and say “Through God anything is possible”. Obviously there is an argument to be made that we shouldn't be discouraged before hardship, but at the same time if our teachings make it more difficult to achieve our goals maybe we should change our teachings in order to achieve our goals. This is especially true in such a noble goal like world peace.
Another explanation is that it is to battle against the claim that “SCJ is anti-state”. I understand that, but it’s unusual for SCJ to change it’s teaching to please it’s critics, so why do it here? Jesus also didn’t want to cause offense (Mt 17:24-27 the episode of the coin in the fish’s mouth). I don’t know how effective the singing of the korean anthem is to not offend the critics. But probably it would be far more effective to stop saying that all the members of CCK are children of the devil or to stop accusing them of things that happened during the Japanese rule like worshipping japanese gods (that happened over 75 years ago, and if someone would like to look into it they were forced to do it, even with bayonets at some point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto_in_Korea , http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/3002 , The reference only speaks of Presbyterian Church, not CCK explicitly.)
Reference for God not having favorites: Rom 2:11. But it is true that for example in the old testament he clearly had favorites, the Israelites. Even in the new testament for if we look at Matthew 5 (Blessed are the poor in spirit […]) it becomes quite clear that God somehow still shows favoritism.
5. Rv 22:10-11 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
An angel tells John not to seal up this words, to reveal the prophecies, to reveal the fulfillment. Then he tells him that those who are worthy will continue to be so. Now the following is my interpretation so I could be wrong but I admit I could be wrong and I will never say that these points are absolutely true in every case. You dear reader should make up your own mind, and form your own ideas. God has gifted you with critical thinking, you should form your own opinions. If you want to put your absolute trust into someone who has a good explanation of a part of the Bible, you’re free to do so. But be aware of the exact reason you’re in the church.
So now my interpretation of these verses is that God tells MHL to reveal this prophecy to the world, those who will be worthy will accept the testimony and join him to take over the world. So I think we should preach this word openly and honestly to everyone. Everyone should be able to buy MHL’s book and online you should be able to find all kind of videos and explanations of the doctrine of SCJ.
One could still point out that the disciples of Jesus didn’t divulged that he was the messiah at the beginning. True. It can be said that people will be turn away if they aren’t curios and do not fear to miss out at the second coming, but the people with the right hearth (According to the standard of the Bible) would join the cause, which would be what verse 11 says.
Point is our church is actively hiding our teachings from the wider public, and if we accept our teachings as true this verse is against hiding them. It also bothers me these victim narrative where the church of SCJ says that online there is plenty of doctrines attributed to SCJ that aren’t actually theirs, a good way to solve such a problem would be having an official website with the official teachings.
6. The seed of Jesus. So we know that Jesus sowed the seed at the time of the first coming as explained in Mt 13. Then we move on to the time of Revelation. God makes a new covenant with 7 guys that moved on from a praying group. He made a new covenant with them for 3.5 years, a covenant nowhere to be found in the Bible, that he would fulfill everything in 3.5 years. In this time we know what their true purpose was: they were the lampstands who had to prepare the way for the lord at the time of the second coming, like John the Baptist. Except that they did anything but prepare the way for the person who is supposed to be Jesus’ secondcoming. John the baptist acknowledged Jesus in the beginning and said he wasn’t worthy to take his sandals.
SSN entered the tabernacle in February ‘67 in June the 7 messenger betray and replace the head of the church. SSN then asks why and they try to kill him. This is the explanation I have until now but it doesn’t seem reasonable to me what happened here, like the reactions are exaggerated and it just seems like a justification to explain why he left at some point.
So if we want to make parallels to the firstcoming the eqaution JTB = 7 Lampstands doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
On top of that why does the seed of Jesus, scattered into the world as explained in Mt 13 only bear fruit in one place (South Korea)? It doesn’t make sense, it would be like saying that in the firstcoming the chosen people were only the people of Jerusalem.
7. In the article “The Sons of God and the People of the World-” we can find the following words: Throughout 6,000 years of God’s history, only Jesus and the family members of the 12 tribes, who have been harvested and sealed, are the sons of God born of God’s seed since the creation of the world until today (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43, Rv 14:14-16, Rv 7:1-8). Can you say that this is not so? Testify according to the Bible.
Well if I understand this correctly what he is saying is that only Jesus and the current members of SCJ are sons of God born of God’s seed. I disagree with that for the simple reason that we have written accounts of the existence of Multiple sons of God a part from Jesus, even in the old testament:
Gn 6:2 The sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Romans 8:14 “For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. ”
Jn 1:12 “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, ”
Romans 8:16 “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God”
1 Jn 3:1-2 “See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. ”
So the statement is false. There have been other people that are Sons of God and therefore born of God’s seed throughout the whole bible.
The promised pastor is either absolutely correct because he speaks the word of God or he absolutely wrong, there can’t be a middle ground if he says he’s the only one that has the true testimony.
8. I don’t really trust the money-prize given to the group of people with the highest conversion percentage. Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” In putting a money prize out for converting the most people you are actively serving God and serving your pockets.
One can point out that it is hypocritical of me to say this when I too am guilty of not giving everything I own to the poor and sometimes indulging in activities that differ from strictly only helping the kingdom of God. I don’t follow Mt 19:21 “sell everything and give it to the poor”. And it is right, I’m not perfect, I like having money, but I don’t claim that the spirit of Jesus is working through me and I don’t claim that I’m the embodiment of a perfect believer and that our struggle is the same as that of the martyrs.
(At the time of writing I didn’t knew he once took the prize for himself. Don’t even get me started with the embezzlement accusations)
9. Lk 17:22-23 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them.
Mt 24:22-23 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
We claim that SSN is the flesh through which the spirit of Jesus works. Granted we don’t claim he is the messiah but still we assert that his spirits works through him and therefore we claim a place where the messiah is. I mean everyone in SCJ knows what our teaching is you can either accept that this verses exist and that we ignore them or coming to terms with your cognitive dissonance.
“But SSN never says he’s the Messiah” True, but pretty much everyone else in SCJ says that the spirit of Christ works through him. He claims the spirit of Christ is with him, you know, I know it. If you decide that this verse applies to everyone else than MHL then feel free to do so, but don’t pretend there aren’t enough valid reasons for leaving this church, and don’t pretend this is an outlandish claim that these verses MAYBE apply to this pastor who says that he does the work of Jesus.
It is true that Jesus is supposed to come back and it is impossible to know where he is without someone saying it, but this is a problem of the Bible, not mine, I’m just pointing out that how according to the Bible we shouldn't follow people who make claims about the location of Jesus.
10. “Think of everything you have overcome until now” I don’t like this statement. If it is an error then it is right to stop it. I know there are a lot of people that have sacrificed a lot for SCJ. If I was at their place I would dread to be wrong and facing the reality that maybe all these promises I was fed where only that: promises (it’s true that God made them but he didn’t fulfill them for thousands of years, so I shouldn't be so surprised if he won’t fulfill them even now).
If you are in a toxic relationship, your partner, to prevent you from leaving would say “Think of all the things we have been through together” and it is exactly the same like SCJ saying “Think of everything you have overcome until now to be here”.
On the other hand obviously we’re very close to the conclusion of everything according to the teachings of SCJ so it would be foolish to let go if it is true. I would just point out that the “Fear-Factor” that comes with impending doom is used frequently with different cults, so I have decided for myself that it shouldn't matter regarding my decision to leave SCJ.
It is true that even if it was false it will probably be evident within a few years (if we look at the Old age of MHL) and being part of SCJ isn’t that restrictive and I wouldn’t necessarily jeopardize the rest of my life by staying in the church, but if you’re convinced it is not true then it doesn’t make a sense to stay even a day longer. Staying longer and seeing that it is false would probably lead you to resent the people of the church a lot, people that you grew to respect and to see as friends and examples. I owe it to myself and I owe to the people around me to be honest. I think we have been bamboozeld and we are using a lot of potential that could be used in far more constructive things.
11. I don’t fall into the trap of thinking “I know lots of intelligent and educated people that are here, if they still are how can I think that all this is wrong?” there have always been very intelligent people that fell into a cult mentality and were wrong. I mean look at all the people that are in JW, do you really think they are all just gullible? Do you think they have just been brainwashed, that they aren’t capable of questioning the teachings they have been fed? They’re people, just like you and me. Some members there are bound to be far more intelligent than you and me that would destroy us on any interpretation of the bible that doesn’t align with theirs.
If this example doesn’t sound right I’d point to Silicon Valley. You know Theranos? Look it up, lots and lots of VERY intelligent and VERY educated people were fooled there. You know what the CEO of that fraudulent company used to say when faced with criticism? You just don’t get the bigger picture. You should broaden your mind and not focus on so small details to be honest I don’t recall the exact video but here you can check out some of the stories (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wf_2KYRPWQ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvznWSEKoEE).
12. This point kind of connects with what I’ve said before.
“Does this thought bring me closer to God or stray further away from him?” If you think like this you are just bound to only believe whatever confirms your preconceived notion of where God is and what he promises, you won’t actually come to a conclusion on what is true or not, you’ll just keep believing in the same thing without ever really questioning it.
“Look at the bigger picture”, “The pharisees also kept on focusing on details”
Fair point. But the pharisees were criticizing a man that was carrying his mat. It is true that you really can’t make an argument for the healing since Jesus healed people just by word or by touch. But don’t forget that God put someone to Death by stoning because he dared to pick up branches for a fire on the sabbath (Num 15:32-36) So maybe Let’s try to not judge them so harshly, at that time Moses’ laws where still relevant so in my opinion it is also understandable that they missed some of the “bigger picture”.
The bible is important, as a whole. So if something doesn’t add up you should point it out, if something doesn’t make sense I will speak about it. 1 Thess 5:20-22 Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.
So especially in Revelation, since the doctrine of SCJ is so heavy on that everything should make sense, all prophecies have to be fulfilled exactly, so don’t let people tell you “It’s only a detail, don’t focus on it”.
So if I tell you that the hour in Rv 17:12 isn’t exact, that the meaning of half an hour in Rv 8:1 changed in the teachings of SSN from one thing to another and that saying that there isn’t anyone specific for 7 seals 7 trumpets and 7 churches MAYBE could be seen as discarding some of the prophecies. Gal 5:9 little yeast works through all of the dough, so even small wrong teachings corrupt the whole thing. Maybe all these things are not actually important. And maybe you’re right. And maybe all these things are not important because the whole testimony isn’t.
13. Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit
The church does essentially prohibits drinking. Especially since the claim is that SCJ is the Kingdom of God it doesn’t make sense to me why then drinking should be a matter. Of course I’m not suggesting that we should get drunk but the principle is still that. For SCJ drinking is a matter, and in the Bible it says that the Kingdom of God (which SCJ claims to be) shouldn't be a matter of drinking. I don’t even like drinking but every time I bring that up I get told “So do you want to drink?” “Do you think the right thing to do is drink?” This isn’t a constructive conversation, it just seems to question my persona by saying that I just want to drink and that I am “earthly”. This doesn’t answer my question at all
Jesus asked his disciples to drink wine in remembrance of him 1 Cor 11:25, so he was OK with it.
The usual reply is something along the lines of “people could be offended by it” if you want to form your own opinion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_alcohol .
Drinking is a matter of culture, image and respect but I would argue that the Bible says it shouldn’t be a matter in the Kingdom of God. In some places it seems problematic if you drink, I would argue that in Europe it isn’t. To be honest it’s not completely forbidden, it is permitted for wisdom.
14. In Rv 12 we have the first beast, the beast from the sea. In Rv 13 we have the second beast, the beast from the earth. In the testimony of the physical fulfillment we have that the second beast comes before the first beast. The destruction begins with the beast from the earth, the second beast, Mr. Oh, that enters the tabernacle temple and only then we have the first beast, Mr Tak that enters the tabernacle, to bring destruction. It just seems odd to me that the second beast comes first and the first beast comes second, but I get that it can be seen as a detail.
15. The principle of HWPL and the DPCW is good (even if fails to involve atheists), but not a good enough reason to stay. The Moon sect also did lots of peace work, but that doesn’t change anything about the fact that it is a cult and a sect, same thing goes for Ching Hai from Supreme master TV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Hai). Ching Hai even alleged that some of the prophecies of Nam-Sago where for her (Here is a video, of an explanation why she is the chosen one prophesied by Nam Sago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5P38GvyGNc there are also videos about that around).
16. We say that the 1000 years where the dragon is seized and locked away have already begun, so why then is there still “the work of evil spirits” in the world? Some point out that it is an ongoing process, but I point to the Bible, it says the dragon will be bounded for 1000 years. Rv 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
It doesn’t say that he will be being bounded by 1000 years. For 1000 years he will be bond.
The only argument is that Mr. Tak is fallen, but the ancient serpent, the spirit of Satan is supposed to work through other flesh so I don’t really believe that that prophecy is fully fulfilled right now.
17. Right now the times are tough. The church faces persecution for contributing to the COVID-19 pandemic and SSN for Tax-fraud on top of that. And apparently people have been exposed and face social isolation for being part of the church. For 4 months we don’t hear any sermon from the so said “promised pastor”. No explanation whatsoever why he can’t even register an hour sermon. At the beginning of July it is mentioned that he is in an hospital, but before there wasn’t any explanation on why he shouldn’t be able to record a sermon. Let’s look at the words of Jesus in Jn 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
Would Jesus let his sheep wonder around aimlessly for 4 months? Granted, SSN wrote a lot of letters, and let’s be honest to each other, it’s not that in each sermon we hear something new and exiting, same thing goes for the articles, more or less it is the same thing over and over. But showing a bit of a physical presence to the people who he claims are “his sheep” is something that I expect of someone who calls himself the promised pastor.
18. So now I would like to talk about the year’s motto. This year it includes “The completion of the creation of the multitude in white” which doesn’t mean much to be honest, the year before it was the creation of the multitude in white. A part from the fact that last year there wasn’t any great tribulation so it doesn’t make sense to me to speak about the great multitude since they have to come out of it so already there I see a problem.
We also were told that we would have another 100’000 graduation, but I think at this point it is clear that this won’t happen
Let’s look at Dt 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
So this means that if a prophet of God says something is going to happen and it doesn’t happen that he doesn’t speak the word of God. Now SSN said that this was the year of the completion of the creation of the multitude in white so it is reasonable to assume that this year the creation of the great multitude will be completed. There are some people in the great multitude, this means the creation of it has already begun, so the completion of the creation has already taken place. But let’s say that SSN got it wrong, let’s say we can with absolute certainty say that in the year he said “this is the year of the completion of the creation of the multitude in white” that this prophecy didn’t took place. We would need to acknowledged that he didn’t spoke the words of God. Well look no further than 2013, where the motto of the year was “Completion of the 144’000” (for reference see http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/170707169/336/4thPeaceTourHighlight) this is a literal transcript “I have no doubt that the sealing of the 144’000 will be accomplished very soon. It is something that will be done even if we left it to work on its own” look at what is said during the following time frame 31:15-32:30.)
Maybe it is possible that in that year exactly 144’000 joined the church, but I highly doubt it since 7 years afterwards we are a little less that double that amount I would guess. Which doesn’t add up with the supposed or claimed conversion rate. It is possible that a quote of 144’000 was reached but even in 2020 there is still a tribe that hasn’t reached the 12’000 member so I doubt that motto was fulfilled.
Motto doesn’t necessarily means prophecy, so the mottoes shouldn't be taken as prophecy, then I don’t understand why someone should phrase them like they are prophecies. If the motto was “Creation of the 144’000” or even better “Completion of the creation of the 144’000” I wouldn’t be able criticize the choice of the yearly motto.
19. Why do we have to take a pledge? Nowhere in the new testament can we see something similar to this. And all the peace and unification of religions talk seems to be hypocritical if one is never supposed to leave SCJ. To be fair no one forced no one to sign it but I know we wouldn’t be able to join if we didn’t sign it and no one tried to pressure me into staying because of this “contract”.
20. In SCJ We often hear the claim that 80% of all wars stems from religion. The thing is this number seems nowhere to be found (seriously, if you look up religion causes 80% of all wars on google the second result is from a warp office in Addis Ababa). So there is no scientific research to back such a claim up, the general agreement seems to be that religion causes 6.98% of wars ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war wikipedia cites Axelrod, Alan; Phillips, Charles, eds. (2004). Encyclopedia of Wars (Vol.3) as source for his number).
I mean SSN claims thart the spirit of Jesus works through him, implicitly God, the embodiment from all knowledge, and he just makes claims without any support for it (I know I know there are lots of examples of numbers not adding up in the bible you can find some here https://precepts.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/contradictions-in-scripture-numerical-errors/).
But still it isn’t asking to much for the person in contact with the creator himself to get his numbers right, especially if he has access to the internet and only one google search away from a more accurate number.
21. I don’t think that the DPCW and HWPL will ever appease a conflict. Let’s look at an example.
While in center I was told the story of how SSN brought peace in Mindanao.
For those non familiar in this region of the Philippines there is a deadly conflict between Catholics and Muslims (even ISIS showed up after 2014) that started in 1969 and ended in 2019.
So I found 3 articles on the HWPL site:
http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/1705093/0/NewEraofPeaceBeginsinMindanao
http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/17050971/0/HWPLDayampPeaceWalkinMindanaoPhilippines, http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/190301376/0/SpecialBondofPeacethatTiesMindanaoandHWPLTogether
So now let’s take the word of HWPL to describe what happened here and what the effects of the peace work had on this conflict. Let’s look at how the HWPL site covers the story:
“The new era of peace has begun in Mindanao Island.”
“The representatives of Catholic and Islam signed the peace agreement for ending the war and achieving World Peace and pledged to work together with HWPL”
“The Mindanao Peace Agreement, facilitated by the third party HWPL, was made on the 24th of January in 2015, and since then it has triggered continuous efforts to keep the promise of political stability in the province of Maguindanao and the reconciliation among religious leaders.”
“On that day, the peace that was found in each one raising their hands and in the glistening of their eyes has been leading Mindanao.”
So seeing this one would think pretty significant changes in the history of the conflict (By the way the Islamic faction is called Moro Islamic Liberation Front, in short MILF, which is an interesting acronym to go with).
Useless facts aside, the peace agreement was signed the 24.01.2014 (for ref: http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/1705093/0/NewEraofPeaceBeginsinMindanao) the day after there was such a huge clash between MILF and the Filipino forces that it has a Wikipedia page on it’s own! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamasapano_clash
62 people ended up dying plus 1 to 7 civilians. And we often heard a narrative of how the UNO has always failed at bringing world peace, and that the international community isn’t up to such a task, only through the spirit of God there is the possibility of peace.
So the claims on the HWPL site are clearly exaggerated, at best disingenuous and at worst misleading and outright bullshit.
For completeness, I should also point out that on the site (http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/190301376/0/SpecialBondofPeacethatTiesMindanaoandHWPLTogether) it is written “During an interview with Cheonji Daily News in 2015, Ebrahim, Chairman of MILF, stated that he heard from Esmael Mangudadatu, the governor of Maguindanao, about the peace agreement between the Islamic and Catholic leaders that was mediated by Chairman Lee. He also said, “Our organization negotiated with the government for 18 years but had not reached a settlement. The private peace agreement between the Islamic and Catholic leaders with the mediation of Chairman Lee in January 2014 helped to make the agreement between the government and MILF possible.”
I wasn’t able to find any support for this statement out of this site to be honest I wasn’t even able to find out what the Cheonji Daily News exactly is, I would guess some SCJ news outlet.
22. SCJ criticizes International law: “We recognize that conflicts are emerging in very high number in the world today because current international law is based upon a premise that armed force can be used in certain circumstances. Without change, it would be impossible to completely stamp out the embers of conflict.” (from http://hwpl.kr/en/news/view/17050946/24/DeclarationofPeaceandCessationofWarDPCW)
So armed forces shouldn’t be used under any circumstance. Which would solve the problem at it’s core but leaves no possibility for defense against oppression. But the DPCW permits the use of armed forces. Article 7 - Right to self-defence (from http://hwpl.kr/en/initiative/lawForPeace) So there is a right to self-defence and I would argue that we’re speaking of armed self-defence here.
On the website it is supposed that international laws are flawed because they permit the use of armed forces. But the DPCW also permits them. So in my opinion it is hypocritical and misleading to criticize international law for something the DPCW also supports.
23. SCJ constantly victimizes itself in saying that it is portrayed wrongly in the media and persecuted with false doctrines put online. To solve this problem it only needs to put is whole and complete teachings online.
24. The prophecies in Daniel 12 and 7.
From what I heard they are references to the first coming, so theoretically they mirror exactly what is going on right now. Jesus testified about them so that the disciples could understand that he was the promised pastor. If that is the case why are these things never mentioned? The only references are those of the abomination that causes desolation (Mt 24:15, Mark 13:15-21) from these verses it seems that the abomination that causes desolation still has to come and not that it already was present during the first coming.
Basically my argument here is that according to the Bible the abomination that causes desolation is to come at the time of the second coming. But if that is true I would like to know:
Who are the 4 kings that raise from the sea? Are they the same people at the fulfillment of Revelation? If yes why then we know nothing of these references? If not who are they? SSN should know the whole Bible and know an answer.
Who is the new Horn? The wings from the fire beast, what does it mean they are torn off? What are the ribs in the mouth of the beast? What is the 4th beast? And who are the 3 Horns uprooted by the new horn with the eyes? (The last questions applied to the chapter Daniel 7)
Now regarding Daniel 12: What is up with the 3.5 years here? What are the time spans spoken of in v. 11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
These prophecies remain shrouded in mystery for me.
Once I was told that actually they refer to the first coming. So let’s say that Mt 24:15 and Mark 13:15-21 do not refer to the beast of Daniel, even though to me it does.
At this point Jesus would have testified about these beasts to the Apostles and so they could recognize him as the promised pastor, exactly what SSN is doing right now. The thing is that such a narrative is never mentioned in the whole of the new testament, we never see Jesus talking about the physical fulfillment of the beast in Daniel, so to me it doesn’t seem realistic that it happened. Let’s say in 1000 years the bible will have a couple more books explaining what happened at the second coming. It doesn’t make sense that in these new books the physical fulfillment of betrayal destruction and salvation is never mentioned. That it is never mentioned that Mr. Tak is the embodiment of the prostitute, that there is a group of people that represented the Beast.
For anyone that points out that these are details and I shouldn't worry about them I would invite him to remember 1 Thess 5:20-22.
25. Some members say they wouldn’t believe in God if SSN would turn out to be a false pastor.
Let’s image you stand before God and ask him why he let you be deceived so much by a mere human being, maybe he would ask you back, the whole christian world was against this man, he is being judged by human standards and being found guilty, he is being judged by other Christian entities how much more evidence do you need? The thing each person is free to choose. Among the critiques to this church there isn’t one of coercion, anyone is free to leave, the choice to rest or leave is yours and ONLY yours, don’t claim someone else is responsible for your actions, we know God doesn’t like that, so own up to it. It’s your decision to stay or leave, don’t let anyone tell you any different.
Some people also say “If it isn’t from God why should God let it happen?” To those I would just say to google “People’s Temple”. So then they should answer the same question they just did “If that wasn’t from God then why did he let it happen?”. I think that we can all agree that God hasn’t been particularly interventionist being in the last couple of hundred of years. (Look no further than the last two world wars, the holocaust, communism and conflicts between religions) God didn’t stop those atrocities, and if we say he can do anything, then he chose not to do anything about it.
26. I feel like critical thinking is not always appreciated in the church, but it is very likely that I’m just quickly offended when someone doesn’t agree with me. But just to be sure, here some bible verses that promote critical thinking (the first ones to pop up when you google Bible verses that support critical thinking):
Prov 14:15 The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps.
1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
BUT to be honest there are also multiple instances where accepting doctrine without questioning it seems to be acclaimed:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Proverbs 28:26 Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
Lk 18:17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.
These verse to my understanding just confirm that the Bible is a contradictory book in it’s nature. There is no possible way to interpret the whole bible without ignoring parts of it. Someone who claims to be a walking bible, or claims to have a perfect understanding of the Bible is lying and deceiving. He is either deliberately doing this with the purpose of exploiting you and for that reason you should leave or he is just a crazy person.
27. Another point regarding the article: “The Sons of God and the People of the World” “The Christian Council of Korea (CCK) is a coalition of different denominations, while Shincheonji is only one. The CCK is the spiritual Israel (the field) of the first coming, and Shincheonji is the new spiritual Israel (the barn) of the second coming.”
I don’t think only the CCK is the field. The field is the world as written in Mt 13:38. The world is the field not the CCK. On top of that the earth, the chosen people in the beginning where only the people of the tabernacle temple. Now it is CCK, and maybe some day it will be all of Christianity, but this can’t be true, either it was the whole of Christianity that was chosen, that “grew” from the seed of Mt 13 or it wasn’t. The chosen people of the first coming where all the Israelites, not only those of Jerusalem.
I have the same problem with some of the words of the article:”The Beginning (the Scenes of the Seven Churches) and the End of Revelation”: “These were the events that ended Jesus’ spiritual Israel in Rv 6, after approximately 2,000 years, in Gwacheon, Republic of Korea, and in Rv 7 began creating again a new kingdom and new people, the 12 tribes.”
Here we see another example, where spiritual Israel are only the people of the Tabernacle Temple in Gwacheon.
28. I would argue that it isn’t that difficult to say:
a) Revelation is a book about a prophecy (these opinion is actually quite popular around the world)
b) Make up a story of how some events line up with these prophecies (Spoiler the explanation would contain a lot of things in the spiritual realm)
But that is just my opinion, I get that someone could not agree with this statement.
29. The structure, recruiting process and how we speak of SSN is very similar to other destructive personality cults. (for more information on the matter check out Steve Hassan’s work on www.freedomofmind.com)
30. I want my freedom. I don’t want to feel compelled to lie, I don’t want to be told to lie. I want to be honest to my family and friends. I don’t want to accept things I think are wrong. I don’t want to support an organization that I think exploits people I grew to respect and like.
31. After speaking with a leader and explaining each point being told that I didn’t have any legitimate reason to leave the church, basically that all these points weren’t a good explanation.
These are some points that make me doubt that SSN is the promised pastor destined to guide us to salvation.
If I stay I would support this organization, letting her exploit other people, and I won’t stand for it, I hope it stays like this and it won’t degenerate into something worse.
I don’t expect no one to think my arguments are all perfect. I just want you to acknowledge that they are mine, and that you respect me as a human being, that you admit that is possible SSN is not the perfect seal of the Bible.
Now here some criticism to my persona in the case you want to find some other excuse than pure critical thinking for leaving:
- I’m arrogant
- I have hopes in the world and I don’t really care they aren’t eternal, I don’t need to convince myself of something I think is a lie just to bear the fact that probably in 200 years or so my name will never be mentioned again by anyone.
- I get really annoyed while going over the same things, and frankly most of sermons aren’t very intellectually challenging or broad for that matter. I just can’t convince myself that that is a good use of time, I tried but I couldn’t. The articles may vary a bit, but I think even there most of the time I’m not able to find something new.
- I don’t actually think that I should pursue what brings me closer to God but I should pursue what is true.
#I was a member for long time and saw many red- flags but I pushed them out of my mind because I was told these were thoughts of satan who was making me doubt. The biggest red-flag was when I started to go through difficulty because of the high demand of work in SCJ. The leadership was very uncompassionate. I was constantly given what they call "mindset training" using the scripture out of context to manipulate me and tell me that it did not matter that I was a mother or wife my duty was to SCJ. Also, the way that the leadership did everything in their power for members not to socialize among each other unless it was reported. They would say things like if we meet without an leader present we are trying to create our own sect. Too when I was put in a leadership position I became aware of all the different chats there were to control the member. I was really scared but told myself it was to help them. Another, thing is the way they blatantly lied about things. When I was a new member I was constantly getting in trouble for not "being shrewd or guarding my mouth" as they called it because I was very uncomfortable with lying. Another, was during "the voyage" what they say is the work of peace. When Man Hee Lee would go to New York and visit the UN. I saw so much staging happening. Most of the people in these events were members sitting in as political leaders, diplomates, religious leader and the audience. Additionally, very recently my father-in law passed away and I was told he was old and meant to die. That I should focus on how I can evangelize my husband instead of my sadness. Lastly, I saw the way they got students to commit more and more of their time and make it difficult for them by giving "mindset training" and manipulating them to choose the study over everything else. Even the "homeblessing buddies" in these bible classes are SCJ members. So they report everything to the chat that was created for each student every time they meet with them and right after class. Unfortunately, for me I participated in so much of this. I became a liar and a manipulator. I have many regrets but I hope my experience can help others be aware.
My advice to others is that if you do not doubt the teachings which might happen after hearing the same teaching for so long. Please take a look at their actions because these things show how ungodly these people are. Also, ask yourself if you have peace in SCJ.
#They were vicious and cruel to me regarding my abuse that I had stupidly told them about. Additionally they would spread it between eachother without my permission.
When I left I read this in the Bible and realised the whole basis of lying to do Gods work is inherently wrong. I don’t know why I accepted their justification but reading this there is no way it was right. And to think they do this to EVERYONE.
“Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!” Romans 3:7-8 NIV https://www.bible.com/111/rom.3.7-8.niv
