Why Shincheonji’s doctrine of the Counselor is not biblical
This is a mini series of the YouTube channel Eschatological Bureau.
It is a criticism of the Shincheonji’s Counselor doctrine ( English subtitles, 7 videos, around 30 mins total)
Other videos with English subtitles from the same channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CwDVWawe1E&list=PLNRoROr_emMun3nGQ1UMI5cNBfdaQOQpr
If you are interested in the topic you might want to read the full script of the videos:
The New Shincheonji Doctrine Vaccine: the Counselor
Seven Objections to Shincheonji’s Doctrine of the Counselor (Intermediate unit 25)
Min: Hi everyone! This is the New Shincheonji Doctrine Vaccine. I’m Min. In this video, we’re going to dive deeper into the Counselor we've already discussed with Mr. Yoon in our past videos. Hello, Mr. Yoon.
Yoon: Hello. First of all, congratulation for withdrawing from Shincheonji.
Min: Thank you. Yoon: To be honest, I have been waiting for someone like you. Since the NSD Vaccine (New Shincheonji Doctrine Vaccine) aims to persuade the members of Shincheonji, I needed someone who knows the doctrine of Shincheonji well and has withdrawn from Shincheonji.
Min: I am glad to be a part of this, too. Which part of the Shincheonji doctrine are you going to refute today?
Yoon: The Counselor doctrine.
Min: The doctrine of the Counselor is one of the most significant parts of the Shincheonji doctrine. Shincheonji quotes John14:16, claiming that the Counselor did not come to the disciples 2000 years ago and rather descends on Lee Man-hee today.
Yoon: Right, let me explain about the definition of the word Counselor. The word Counselor comes from the ancient Greek 'Parakletos'.
Min: Parakletos.
Yoon: Basically, it means "pleader by one’s side". From this term come the words Helper, Advocate, Spokesman. It is mentioned in John 14:16, 17,26; 15:26; 16:7.
Objection 1: ‘The Advocate’ in 1 John is Jesus who pleads to God on behalf of his holy people.
Yoon: However, we must talk about 1 John 2:1. According to Shincheonji, the Advocate in 1 John 2:1 is Jesus. Since the footnote states the Advocate is the Counselor, Shincheonji distinguishes the first coming of the the Counselor and the second coming of the Counselor. As I said, however, Parakletos can have different meanings. The Advocate in 1 John 2:1 refers to a pleader. In other words, even if the saints commit sin, Jesus is the pleader who defend them in front of God. Which means the Advocate in 1 John is today’s lawyer. The English Bible versions also translates Paracletos as Advocate, which means defender and pleader.
Min: I see. The Advocate in 1 John 2:1 refers to a laywer. Shincheonji interprets the Advocate as “one who speaks on behalf ”by breaking down the Chinese characters of DaeeonJa 代言者. Shincheonji also interprets the Counselor as "Teacher protected by grace" (according to the Chinese characters of BoHyeSa保惠师)
Yoon: Even if we call the Advocate, "the one who speaks on behalf," It means that Jesus speaks to God on behalf of the saints. We cannot say that (Lee Man-hee) is the Advocate who speaks on behalf of Jesus. However, Shincheonji denies this fact, even if 1 John 2:1 clearly refers to Jesus as the Advocate. In fact, Shincheonji argues that the Advocate is not Jesus, but Lee Man-hee.
Min: That’s because “ I will ask the Father, and he will give you ‘another Counselor’ ” in John 14:16 (NIV1984). On this basis, Shincheonji claims that Jesus was the first Counselor 2000 years ago, and the "nother Counselor" is not Jesus, but Lee Man-hee.
So, the Counselor is the Advocate
Then, because the Bible states there's another ,Counselor there must be someone with a different physical body, that is not Jesus. So, there is a Counselor active today.
This active Counselor speaks on behalf of Jesus. This is what Shinchoenji argues.
Objection 2: The “another Counselor” is “the promised Spirit,” which is the Pentecostal Holy Spirit.
Min: I’ll explain this part. Since I withdrew from Shincheonji because of this. Luke 24:27-49 states "I am going to send you what my Father has promise; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high"(NIV1984). The plural “you” written here certainly refers to the disciples.
Yoon: Right, this is what Jesus said to his disciples before the Ascension.
Min: Here, what the Father promised is the Holy Spirit, and Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit after the Ascension. However, if there wasn't another Counselor at the time, and the Counselor was to come 2000 years later, then the plural “you” in those verse could not be referred to the disciples. Then, this would be like for Jesus to deceive His own disciples.
Yoon: You’re right. Shincheonji strives to consolidate the claim that Lee Man-hee is the Counselor, even at the cost of making Jesus a liar. But it's no use in front of the truth. In Acts 2:33 it is written: Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear (NIV1984). The Bible verses of John 14:16,17, Luke 24:47-49, Acts 2:33 that we discussed earlier are all closely connected. I hope that the Shincheonji members will take the time to check and compare these verses. Then they would understand that the interpretation of the Counselor is wrong. Then they would also understand Matthew 28:19.
Min: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (NIV1984) It states that the Father promised the Holy Spirit, and guided the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Yoon: Right. Both Luke 24:47-49 and Acts 2:33 mention the word “promise.” This promise refers to the promise with Joel in Joel 2:28. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions." (NIV1984)
Min: I see. According to the promise with Joel, Jesus sent the another Counselor, the Holy Spirit, at Pentecost after His Ascension, and the Holy Spirit came down to the disciples. This is the another Counselor he said he would have sent in John 14:16. Nevertheless, Shinchoenji claims that the discples did not receive the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised because it was not the right time and because if they did, they would have remembered and known everything, as stated in John 14:26. Yet, in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul asks why we only know partially and prophesy partially.
Yoon: If one looks deeper into 1 Corinthians, one wouldn't come up with this foolish question.
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears " (NIV1984) In 1 Corinthian, the author compares the perfect and partial things. The perfect in this scripture is ‘love.’ A day when only love will remain. This is the perfect thing mentioned in 1 Corinthians. Let’s now look at what the partial things are: prophecies, tongues, and knowledge. There still are prophecies, tongues, and knowledge to these days. Therefore, this era is still partial.
Min: Ah, Shincheonji talks about knowledge and prophecies. This must be a proof that perfect things are yet to come. Yoon: Right. A time will come when people will not need any prophecies about God, knowledge about God, and prayers in tongues to God. Which is the second coming where God will show Himself. However, now is not the time of the second coming. Therefore, people still need knowledge, tongues, and prophecies. The partial knowledge is still essential today.
Objection 3: “Streams of living water” symbolizes the Pentecostal Holy Spirit that outflows from Jerusalem.
Min: Shincheonji also points out John 7:38-39 where Jesus mentions the Holy Spirit again. How do you explain this?
Yoon: Let me read the scripture first. "'Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.' By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (NIV1984) Of course, the Holy Spirit here is the one of the Pentecost. “The scriptures said" refers to Zechariah 14. Zechariah 14 describes “the streams of living water” and also shows that when God will come to Jerusalem, the living water will flow from Jerusalem. This living water will flow to the east and the west and it will flow during summer and winter. This living water is the Pentecostal Holy Spirit that came to Jerusalem. John 7 also describes the living water as "the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive."These believers are those gathered to pray at Pentecost. The scripture also states"since Jesus had not yet been glorified." In the Gospels, the expression, “Jesus is glorified," symbolizes Jesus’s crucifixion.
Min: "Jesus is glorified" means crucifixion?
Yoon: That’s right. Reading John 13:30-31 will clarify.
Min: "As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. 31 When he was gone, Jesus said, 'Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him."(NIV1984) This is when Judas left after receiving the bread from Jesus during the Last Supper. In that moment, Judas Iscariot went to sell Jesus to the Jewish leaders. Jesus describes this as “the Son of Man glorified." In short, when Jesus was sold by His own disciple to be crucified, He was “glorified."
Yoon: Right. In John 7:39 Jesus has not yet been crucified, and therefore, the time has not come for the disciples to receive the Pentecostal Holy Spirit.
Min: I see. “Glorified" is the keyword. Yoon: There is one verse in particular that Shincheonji can't understand and avoids to explain.
Min: Which verse is that? Yoon: It’s Ephesians 4:4. "There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called" (NIV1984) There is only one Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:4 alone clearly proves that distinguishing the Pentecostal Holy Spirit and the Counselor Holy Spirit is impossible.
Objection 4: The Holy Spirit is never described as a plural being, therefore, he cannot be angels.
Min: I have one more question. Shincheonji interprets "angels" as "Holy Spirit". Looking at Mark 8:38, there is a verse that says "the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."(NIV1984) Based on this, Shincheonji understands angels as Holy Spirit. Moreover, one of the seven angels takes John away in Revelation 17:1. Verse 3 says, "Carried me in the Spirit." So Shincheonji claims that the angels are Holy Spirits. How can you refute this claim?
Yoon: This issue is quite embarrassing. It doesn't need any explanation, it's very straightforward. Let’s look at this sentence. “Min carried me away in her car.” Min, are you the car in this sentence?
Min: No way. So, you are trying to say, that in Revelation 17:3 "the angel carried me in the Spirit," the angel cannot be the Holy Spirit. Right?
Yoon: Correct. Some young Shincheonji members might be watching this video, so if you take a look at the English version the meaning is unmistakable. “He carried me away in the Spirit.” In other words, the angel is taking me away, in the Spirit. This is it. And this said, we have a firm grip on Shincheonji's interpretation.
Min: What do you mean?
Yoon: Shinchoenji is seriously mistaken when claiminig that the angels are the Holy Spirits. This means that they think the Holy Spirit is “multiple.” Mark 8:38 you quoted earlier also states “holy angels.” It is not an angel, but angels. The parallel scripture, Luke 9:26, also states “holy angels.” The word angel can also be singular. In Acts 10:22, Cornelius received instructions from “a holy angel.” Min: It can be written either as angel or angels.
Yoon: However, we have just checked Ephesians 4:4. "There is one body and one Spirit." (NIV1984) There is only one Holy Spirit. Meanig, he is not the angels. He is not multiple. The Holy Spirit is a single being. On top of that, this Holy Spirit is the another Counselor Jesus promised to send us 2000 years ago at Pentecost. There is no such thing as “Holy Spirits.” Even Acts 5:3-4 confirms who the Holy Spirit is. Could you read the verse?
Min: "Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." (NIV1984) Deceiving the Holy Spirit is the same as deceiving God.
Yoon: Yes. Because the Holy Spirit is God Himself.
Objection 5: The Mighty Angel is not the spirit of prophecy
Min: What about the spirit of prophecy in Revelation 19:10? Shincheonji teaches that this spirit of prophecy is the mighty angel. Also John 14:17 states "..another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. " The world cannot accept the Spirit of truth, while the Spirit will be in you. However, Revelation 10 shows a mighty angel, and Shincheonji claims this mighty angel is the Counselor. Also, Shincheonji believes that the mighty angel feeding John represents the spirit working through the flesh. That means, John speaks as the Counselor in the flesh, the Advocate, who received the Counselor in the spirit.
Yoon: We can break this sophisticated fabrication apart with one single verse. Take a closer look at Revelation 19:10.
Min: "10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."(NIV1984)
Yoon: The mighty angel says, "I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus."Is ‘I’ the testimony of Jesus or not?
Min: Oh, it isn’t. John is saying that the mighty angel is the same servant as John's brothers who received the testimony of Jesus. John's brothers received the testimony of Jesus. The mighty angel is not the testimony of Jesus.
Yoon: Right, look at the last sentence again. “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." The mighty angel is not talking about himself. This is about the testimony of Jesus that John's brothers received. And that is...
Min: The Pentecostal Holy Spirit. John and his brothers who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Yoon: Correct. A testimony also validates a fact, right? So, “the testimony of Jesus, ” also means “knowing for a fact about Jesus.” Let’s go back to John 14:26. "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (NIV1984)
Min: The testimony of Jesus is the Holy Spirit that reminds us of everything Jesus said. The Holy Spirit is not the mighty angel, but “the another Counselor” that Jesus sent to His disciples at Pentecost.
Yoon: Yes, correct. Look at John 2:22. ("After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.") It talks about the moment when John and the disciples truly realize who Jesus is. I will explain the details a bit later. Let me explain “the spirit of prophecy.”(Rev. 19:10) In the Korean Bible, the word "spirit" is translated as “Advocacy" but in the original text in Greek this word is completely different from the “the Advocate” in John 2:1. Simply looking at the English version of Revelation 19:10 we can tell what the word "Advocacy" means. The Spirit of prophecy. Prophesy means also speaking on behalf of God, right? That is why the Korean Bible translated it as “Advocacy". Then what is the spirit of prophecy here described as the the testimony of Jesus?
Min: The Holy Spirit. Now I understand the spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit. As it is stated 'your sons and daughters will prophesy'(Joel 2:28) when the Holy Spirit comes. With this being said, Jesus’s disciples have already received the Holy Spirit and prophesied God’s work 2000 years ago.
Yoon: Indeed. The spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit. In other words, in Revelation 19:10, the testimony of Jesus means the spirit of prophecy, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, and the breath of God is God.
Objection 6: It is only after the resurrection that the disciples become true believers of Jesus Christ
Min: However, Shincheonji still distinguishes the Counselor of the first coming and the Counselor of the second coming, and this is their big theological framework. Unless this framework is broken, they will not be convinced by single Bible verses. Shincheonji believes the Old Testament was fulfilled during the first coming, while the New Testament is Jesus’s Prophecy that must fulfill at the time of Revelation, which they claim to be Today. Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the Old Testment, and Lee Man-hee, who is the one who overcomes, is fulfilling the New Testament. Shinchoenji links Isaiah 19:1 and 19:20. Verse 1 says, “the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt." (NIV1984) while in verse 20 it says that he will send them a savior and rescue Egypt. Shincheonji interprets the swift cloud as the savior, and this savior is coming in 'Spirit.’ So they claim that the spirit of the Savior came to the one who overcomes.
Yoon: They also say the believers at the First Coming could not recognize Jesus and killed him. So they say that at the Second Coming, the saints will be unable to recognize Lee Man-hee who comes with the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Shincheonji claims that just like Jesus was treated as an heretic, they are also treated as heretics.
Min: That is true. Shincheonji they say that.
Yoon: But there is a serious misunderstanding in this claim.
Min: What kind of misunderstanding?
Yoon: When do you think the disciples recognized Jesus as the Savior?
Min: I’m not sure. Didn't they all believe that Jesus was the Savior?
Yoon: But didn’t one of the disciples betray Him, and didn't the disciples run away to the Gethsemane? Also Peter denied Jesus three times. And when the disciples heard about Jesus’s resurrection from the women...
Min: They did not believe (Mark 16:10,11). Even though Jesus had proclaimed about his death and resurrection over and over.
Yoon: Therefore, we can conclude that no one truly recognized Jesus. Everyone betrayed Jesus, and in particular, no one believed in the resurrection that Jesus had predicted.
Min: Still, the women went to Jesus’s tomb.
Yoon: Right. However, they carried spices.
Min: How does that matter?
Yoon: The perfume was a custom of Jewish funerals. It was poured on the corpse to prevent the smell. Jesus said to Mary Magdalene who had poured the perfumed oil on him, that she was preparing His burial (Matt. 26:12). These women who visited Jesus’s tomb after the crucifixion in order to complete the funeral with the ceremonial perfume. Which means, these women did not truly believe that Jesus would have risen again from the dead.
Min: Then, when did they truly believe?
Yoon: John 2:22 is the critical point. We have already covered the spirit of prophecy in Revelation 19:10, the spirit of advocacy in the Korean Revised Version, is the Holy Spirit that makes Jesus known to the saints. We can also hear about this from John, who wrote the Revelation. "After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken." (NIV1984)
Min: Ah, the disciples truly believed in the words of the Old Testament and Jesus only after meeting the resurrected Jesus.
Yoon: Right. After the resurrection, Jesus told His disciples: "He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'."(Jon 20:22, NIV1984) The Holy Spirit is the testimony of Jesus. After that, the disciples sincerely, truly believed in Jesus Christ, after meeting the resurrected Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit. The disciples received another Counselor, the Pentecostal Holy Spirit. And since then, a new era where people believe in Jesus through the Holy Spirit began. There are not two spirits, one at the first coming and one at the second coming. Instead, since Jesus’s resurrection, people can truly believe Jesus, who resurrected from the dead. Therefore, the period after Jesus’s resurrection, when people got to truly believe in Jesus, is very significant. However, Shincheonji disregards this essential period between the first and the second coming, when those who witnessed the resurrection received the Holy Spirit and started to spread the Gospel.
Objection 7: The metaphor of John 16:25 is John 16:21
Min: Lastly, I'd like you to talk about John 16:8 , about the role of “another Counselor” It is written in John 16:9-11: Sin is not believing in Jesus, righteousness is not seeing Jesus anymore, judgment is the judgement of the kings of the world. Shincheonji argues that the kings of the world are the pastors of the Church, the righteousness is not being able to see because the Spirit of Jesus came to Lee Man-hee, and not believing in Lee Man-hee is sin. So, Shinchoenji claims that while the Scriptures speak in parables, Lee Man-hee speaks the physical fulfillment (of the parables).
Yoon: Again, this has no relation with the Bible. Understanding the meaning of the parable of Jesus in John 16:25 is important. The context will clarify the content. First, take a look at verse 16. "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." (NIV1984) And in verse 17 and 18, the disciples are wondering about these words. Then when will people be unable to see Jesus, and when will people see Jesus? Pay close attention to the words “in a little while” and think about it.
Min: Being unable to see Jesus is after the crucifixion. The disciples couldn't see Jesus for three days. Then after three days pass, they could see Jesus again. The sentence "in a little while, you will see me no more" and "after a little while you will see me" refers to the death and resurrection.
Yoon: Right. That is John 16:21-22. "A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy." (NIV1984) Those who have grief here must be the disciples, right? "Now is your time of grief." The disciples were anxious when Jesus said He had to be crucified. So in a little while the disciples will be unable to see Jesus because He will truly die. But after in a little while, they will meet Jesus once again. Jesus will be the resurrected Jesus, and the disciples who will meet this resurrected Jesus will be rejoiced. Jesus was explaining the crucifixion and resurrection through the metaphor of the woman’s labor. Verse 25. "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father." (NIV1984)
Min: Ah, “A woman giving birth to a child has pain" is the pain of the disciples for the death on the cross. But the disciples’ anguish for their master gives way to joy when they meet the resurrected Jesus. John 16:25 is the same metaphor Jesus used before His crucifixion and resurrection.
Yoon: Exactly. Contrary to Shinchoenji belief, the metaphor does not refer to the second coming. It refers to the time of His death and resurrection. Then could you guess for how long the resurrected Jesus showed Himself? And to whom He showed Himself?
Min: Hum, wasn’t it a brief appearance?
Yoon: Actually, Jesus was among them for 40 days. And more importantly, He showed Himself to over 500 believers (1 Corinthians 15:6). Could you please read Acts 1:3?
Min: "After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God." (NIV 1984) The resurrected Jesus appeared during 40 days and talked about the Kingdom of God.
Yoon: Then here is the question. Jesus resurrected. Although the disciples could not believe that, Jesus truly resurrected and appeared to His disciples several times and talked to them about the Kingdom of God. Do you think He talked to them in parables? Or He freely and clearly explained the truth?
Min: If He won the death and resurrected, there should be nothing to hide. I think Jesus explained about the Kingdom of God plainly.
Min: We discussed about the seven objections to the Counselor. Shall we summarize them?
Objection 1: ‘The Advocate’ in 1 John is Jesus who pleads to God on behalf of His holy people. ‘The Advocate’ in 1 John 2:1 represents a ‘pleader.’ Jesus who defends His congregation in front of God is described as ‘the Advocate’
Objection 2: The “another Counselor”is “the promised Spirit,” which is the Pentecostal Holy Spirit. According to John 14:16-17, Luke 24:27-49, and Acts 2:33, the "another Counselor” in John 14 is the Pentecostal Holy Spirit.
Objection 3: “Streams of living water” symbolizes the Pentecostal Holy Spirit that outflows from Jerusalem ‘Jesus is glorified' in John 7:39 illustrates Jesus bearing the cross.
Objection 4: The Holy Spirit is never described as a plural being, therefore, can not be angels. Angels cannot be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a single being not multiple (Ephesians 4:4). In Revelation 17:3, the angel carris John away in the Spirit, the angel is not the Holy Spirt himself.
Objection 5: The Mighty Angel is not the testimony of Jesus. “The spirit of advocacy” in Revelation 19:10 is the ‘spirit of prophecy’ in the original Greek scripture. In Joel 2:28, the spirit of prophecy refers to the Pentecostal Holy Spirit.
Objection 6: It is only after the resurrection that the disciples become true believer of Jesus Christ The disciples truly believed the Scriptures and Jesus’s words not through the study of the doctrine, but after seeing the resurrected Jesus Christ (John 2:22). And the resurrected Jesus ascended to Heaven and continued to send the same Pentecostal Holy Spirit to the people of these days. This Holy Spirit is the "another Counselor”
Objection 7: The metaphor of John 16:25 is John 16:21 The parable in John 16:25 is the same parable of the woman’s labor in John 16:21. This metaphor shows how the disciples’ mourning for Jesus will give way to joy after meeting the resurrected Jesus. It is not about the secret hidden for 2000 years.
