Fact Check - Byun Sangwook last national interview on Shincheonji

 Fact Check Host, Kim Joon-il, interviewing Byun Sang-wook.

Script:

[INTRO

BSW: Jesus will soon get united with Lee Man-hee.

The assets are 550 billion won

There are also people that invested in it 'I considerably contributed to its growth'

H: Essentially, it is a business.

BSW: If one wouldn't get money from it, who would do that.

H: Me too, instead of this unprofitable Fact Check, I have to hurry and make up a religion.]

H: Good evening, I am Kim Jun-il and you are watching Fact Check.

In our 4th episode we looked into Shincheonji and its relationship with the political press.

Some people asked us if SCJ is an heresy or a false religion or what kind of religion it is.

So we brought an expert to discuss about this topic that aroused some curiosity. We urgently brought him.

SCJ expert... It sounds a bit strange, but anyway the reporter that have dug into SCJ for 16 years, reporter Byun Sang-wook.

Good evening.

BSW: Good evening, nice to meet you.

[On-sreen text: Byun Sang-wook, former reporter of CBS, currently anchor of YTN, SCJ expert]

H: You are an expert about SCJ, right?

BSW: I would rather say about the people deceived by SCJ.

H: I see. So, about the documentary <The people trapped inside SCJ>, the title has just popped out, you are also addicted.

BSW: Yes, I have been addicted for 15 years now.

I have covered the topic of the people trapped into SCJ and I have become addicted myself.

H: While trying to help the trapped people somehow you got trapped too.

Naturally, we are not talking about addiction in a bad sense, anyway it is not an exaggeration saying that he is the number one specialist in Korea. 

He has covered this topic for 16 years.

So today, I believe we will be able to accurately discuss what SCJ is, and what heresies and pseudo-religions are.

BSW: If we want to check the facts, the most knowledgeable people are those that were high rank in SCJ and came out.

Even Lee Man-hee's delegate doesn't know exactly what SCJ is.

H: Even Lee Man-hee doesn't know.

BSW: Because the doctrine and the organization keep changing,

Lee Man-hee only commands but other people carry out his orders, so he doesn't know exactly.

The internal situation of SCJ is extremely complex, only people that are inside the group can give us some understanding.

H: Speaking about internal access, people like pastor Shin Yeon-hong that was a high ranking executive in SCJ and then left, can give us a better understanding.

BSW: These kind of people can give us the most accurate understanding because they are still in touch with the group to some extent and they can receive information and analyze it based on their previous experience.

H: I see. Let's start with something simple.

BSW: There is nothing simple about SCJ.

H: But still, we'll try keep it simple.

In the beginning, how did you get interested in SCJ?

BSW: One day the PDs and the younger reporters told me that a strange phenomenom was occurring in the protestant churches.

Some people were infiltrating the churches. They alienated the believers leading them out of the church.

How could this happen? We thought SCJ may have been behind that so we started to investigate.

So I started to cover those events.

We were unsure if it was better to keep writing reports or if we should have organized some kind of campaign or a project. We ended up starting a project.

We wanted to create an archive for curious people to study, so we store material for quite some time.

And that became the 8 episode documentary <The people trapped inside SCJ>

H: It didn't get much attention in the beginning but, after the recent events related to SCJ, there have been an explosive increase of visualizations on YouTube. A few millions visualizations.

BSW: I guess that if it had this success in the past I would be living a much more comfortable life.

However, this is mostly because people think these events only happen in the tiny teacup of the society outskirts.

H: 'They don't have anything to do with me'

BSW: We can just throw out the teacup if it gets rotten.

If we think like that, we just point fingers at SCJ. However, we should think at SCJ as a mouse.

H: Like a mouse?

BSW: Wolves live in open fields, on the mountains

H: They live by themselves.

BSW: But mice live in groups, in hidden places as close as possible to human beings.

H: And that's why they can transmit diseases.

BSW: Their behaviour has many side effects.

H: That's true... Well, sometimes SCJ is called an heresy, sometimes pseudo-religion.

There are many terms.

However, I don't know much about religion, so could you first explain what heresies and a pseudo-religions are, and how they are different?

BSW: An heresy comes from a religion but it breaks away from the doctrine of that religion.

It is phenomenon of deviation.

For example,the most important principle of Christianity is the nature of Jesus Christ.

He is the son of the living God and our Saviour.

But in SCJ, Jesus Christ is in stand-by and then he will unite with the spirit and flesh of chairman Lee so eventually Lee Man-hee will become Jesus.

Jesus will soon become one with Lee Man-hee.

Lee Man-hee is the Jesus of the future.

Also salvation. How will we get salvation?

This is also different from the the progressive or conservative theologies.

Salvation is seeking God and not drifting away from God.

Or it is Heaven, going to Heaven.

Even within Christianity there is a spectrum of differences, however in SCJ, only 144000 peple will be granted grace.

H: Ah, the 144000.

BSW: When the end draws near, the soldiers are gathered to fight.

So if you multiply the symbolic number 12 the perfect number of times, 1000, you get 12,000.

As each tribe gathers 12,000 soldiers, the total number will grow up to 144,000.

These 144,000 people will have salvation and immortality. The others are on a position of inferiority.

This concept of salvation is a forgery.

It's a forgery.

SCJ only has the truth, only in SCJ there is salvation.

So the Church can't accept this.

This is an heresy.

H: So this is an heresy.

BSW: They use the same Bible but they change its shape.

Coming to pseudo-religions, (pseudo-religions!) since the beginning there is a scheme and a plan so when they approach new people and they talk them into the organization, they are actually taking advantage of these people to pursue a personal goal.

H: Since the beginning the purpose is deception.

We can say it is a pseudo-religion if the aim is some hidden, personal benefit since the start while an heresy has a religious doctrine that deviates from orthodoxy.

BSW: SCJ started as an heretical church but then it became shadier and shadier, shifting towards pseudo-religions.

It has almost reached the last step.

H: It is almost a pseudo-religion.

BSW: When you call it a pseudo-religion people say it is not true:'we convey the most upright truth, why do you call us a pseudo?'

This kind of reaction itself is a red flag.

H: Actually, heresy is a sensitive issue in Christianity.

In the past, the concept of Trinity was the big concern of Nicaea and only then it was recognized as part of the doctrine.

BSW: Since then there is an agreed convention and whatever breaks away away from that is considered an heresy.

H: Compared to other heresies, is SCJ doctrine much far from the original one?

BSW: Yes, it is.

Step by step, it has broken away from the original doctrine.

H: Lately, SCJ is all over the place, but not much has been said about other heresies and pseudo-religions on the media.

We can't talk about all of them, but could you tell us something about the most important ones?

BSW: Different christian orders use different levels to define heresies.

First, attention: 'Why are their teachings so shady?' . The teachings are suspicious.

Then, exchange prohibition: you must not go there and you can not bring people here.

Third thing: heresy, contact prohibition.

H: Attention level, no exchange level, heresy.

BSW: Each religious order has different levels but they all have these three more or less in common.

But almost every religious order recognize some groups as non-christian, the first one is the Unification Church.

In the case of the Unification Church we already know:'It is not christian, it is Unification Church'.

It stands alone for its uniqueness.

H: Moon Seon-myung, the Unification Church of Moon Seun-myung.

BSW: The Unification Church is just the Unification Church.

Next, Jehovah's witnesses.

It was directly imported from the US in 1920es.

H: Even now there are many people distributing leaflets.

BSW: They have something in common with SCJ.

There is a place called KingdomHall and at the end of times, the soldiers of Jehovah, 144000 people that are waiting and will be witnessing, will fight against the devil.

Jehovah's Witnesses.

The very ambiguous Mormon Church.

H: Right, the Mormon Church.

BSW: It is clearly a branch of christianity and it is widely spread and deeply rooted in the US.

But the Korean Church could not accept it, there are several important differences.

H: One thing I know about Mormon Church is that it allows polyandry... I mean, polygamy

That may be a bit controversial.

BSW: Next, a quite critical heresy.

H: A critical one. Closer to a pseudo-religion.

BSW: The Church of God.

If you attend their church you might see a plate 'Awarded by the Queen of England'

H: Ah, really?

BSW: There was a precursor designated by God, Ahn Sahng-hong, but he passed away. A long time ago.

The Witnesses of Ahn Sahng-hong believe that he has become God.

H: The closer the group is to a pseudo-religion, the more there are claims of being God or Jesus.

BSW: Now the Witnesses of Ahn Sahng-hong worship Ahn Sahng-hong as God the Father and his late wife Kahng Kil-jah as God the Mother.

H: God the Mother? Oh my, really...

BSW: So Ahn Sahng-hong is God the Father and Kahng Kil-jah God the Mother, they worship them separately.

Next is JMS, Jung Myung-sook.

H: This is well-known, founder Jung Myung-sook, he was charged for sexual abuse. He's even been in jail.

BSW: He was a former Unification Church member, then he founded his indipendent group JMS.

He was condemned to 10 years for sexual abuse, then he was released with the electronic anklet.

Now he is active in the Choongham forest area.

These are the most important heresies in South Korea.

H: But I think many people want to know why, with the appearance of the Coronavirus,

SCJ has suddendly become a problem.

Because there are many other heresies and pseudo religions, so what are the the peculiarities of SCJ that made it problematic in this situation?

Could you please explain the distinctive features of SCJ?

BSW: I think there are two reasons: first of all, the pyramidal structure of SCJ and secondly, the inconsinstencies in the doctrine. In SCJ, these problems are complicated.

The pyramidal structure.

First, the highest ranks teach to the middle layer, and they receive the education and pass it down to the lower ranks and so on, until they finally scatter into the streets in tiny grops.

They don't meet up only once, they have continuous gatherings, like a chain collision, they have several meetings and they keep gathering, so that this gatherings become crowded and they have to seat into very tight clusters.

So this condition is favourable to the spreding of the virus, even from a single person.

There are so many people.

Daegu group is around 10 thousand people, if they gather in the same place it is not a very hygienic condition.

Finally, there are several floors and all the people sits in front of huge TV screens to watch the service.

So in a 4 or 7 storey building, when they have a service and it is packed with people, the elevators and the stairs are also an ideal environment for the spreading of the virus.

So here lies the connection with the Coronavirus events.

Another issue is related to the 'plot' strategy they use to evangelize.

In the beginning, they hide that they belong to SCJ and drag people into it, then at some point they reveal it is SCJ.

[On-screen text: SCJ, even impersonating a monk...accused of fraud

To what extent they can justify themselves. The accurate lies in the name of God's kingdom]

Indiscriminate methods of propagation

SCJ, secretive methods of propagaton

The concern about the contagion grows

Controversy about fake psychology department evangelism]

H: They say,'Actually, I am in SCJ'

BSW: Through this 'plot' they evangelize and on this 'plot' they founded this business.

It's a group all organized around this 'plot'.

And that's the reason why they couldn't immediately provide the list of their members and their addresses.

Because the whole organization is made of lies.

Then people with hidden microphones got in and they revealed everything.

At first, it was clear it couldn't be the complete list, 'we know there's more, give us the complete list.'

And finally, the third time they were asked, the residence was exposed.

They said it was a private residence,and not a SCJ facility, but they were lying.

In SCJ, if the bell rings for more than 3 times they get scolded.

[On-screen text: 90 SCJ members have symptoms...300 people don't answer the phone

Prosecutor, Lee Man-hee suspected to have submitted false data

Stop to the non cooperation of SCJ...interference with the prevention on which koreans' lives depend

The 'corporate office' indicated by SCJ is an empty building]

H: Really?

BSW: The supervision is that strict.

And they have classes 4 times a week, up to 2 hours, and on Sundays or Wednesdays they have to go to the service.

H: I am too lazy , I couldn't do that.

BSW: So in this situation where the virus can easily spread, the system is such that they couldn't provide the information about their members or their facilities.

It is quite complicated.

H: So, the situation was created as a result of their peculiar doctrine, the conditions and location of the worship or other gatherings.

I understand... Now...

Actually, we have gathered some material about the relationship between SCJ and the political circle.

There are many articles about that lately.

Rumors say there is some kind of connection between SCJ and Choi Tae-min's Eternal Life Church

Is that true?

Could you tell us something about the relationship between SCJ and the church of Choi Tae-Min?

BSW: I would say there is no connection between Choi Tae-min and SCJ.

H: There is no connection?

BSW: Because Choi Tae-min was under the protection of president Park Chung-hee and he had a good relationship with Park Geun-hye too, so the Eternal Life Church was powerful from the early 1970es to 1976.

Lee Man-hee was in the Tabernacle Temple in 1971 and 1972.

Then he left and he met two people of the Unification Church.

He didn't join the Unification Church but he learned about the organization.

Only hanging out with them he could have been able to learn.

That's why in the beginning SCJ was very similar to the Unification Church.

Then he went back to his home town and in 1978 he and a senior leader founded the Sadoc of Solomon Church and he started to preach in the Indeogwon area.

Then, in 1980, he was chased, so he was hiding.

Because Lee Man-hee reported the leader of the Tabernacle Temple, Yoo Jae-yeol, to the police and ran away.

Yoo Jae-yeol was imprisoned and then he went to the US.

When he came back from the US he looked for Lee Man-hee to get revenge and he sued him.

So Lee Man-hee hid himself until around 1980.

And finally he founded SCJ in 1984.

At that time, president Park Geun-hye had already left the Blue House, in 1979, and retired from public office.

So Lee Man-hee and the supporter of the former president, Choi Tae-min, didn't have any relationship.

H: They didn't have any personal relationship but are their doctrines similar?

BSW: The two doctrines may overlap on some points, but Choi Tae-min mixed together confucianism, buddhism and christianity.

He became a sort of guru and founded the Eternal Life Church with his enlightened teachings.

On the contrary, Lee Man-hee based his doctrine on the Book of Revelation, he turned it upside-down and he created a sort of a Christian sect.

So the two doctrines have not much in common.

H: You talked about the Unification Church and the Tabernacle Temple. And before that?

BSW: Now it has become a Cheonbu church, but before it was called 'Olive Tree Movement' or 'religious settlement'.

He was under Park Tae-seon and he learnt the style of the Olive Tree, then he learnt in the Tabernacle Temple, after that he met some people that had been in the Unification Church, then he acquired the know-how and improved his skills in the church he made with his senior.

This way he got to create SCJ.

H: It's like he used a secret technique to take everything and make a huge 'mu-gong'

BSW: Yes, with a secret technique he breathed in the nei-going of his opponents and he piled it up inside.

That's how the problem came up.

H: That's why it is so messed up.

So they don't have a personal relationship.

BSW: No, they don't.

H: Chairman Lee... Eternal life.

He is almost 90 now,what is going to happen when he dies?

What is going to happen to SCJ, and if a new leader comes up, will the believers follow him?

There are many different opinions, what do you think?

BSW: Lee Man -hee is almost 90 and there are already 10 or so groups that broke out, very small, they are very small groups that broke out of SCJ.

It maintains the power but they acquired the doctrine system of SCJ as it is.

Among those, the most powerful is the New Promised Shincheonji: Secheonji.

H: Secheonji! Is there really a religion called Secheonji?

BSW: Yes, there is this Secheonji, very similar to SCJ, but the believers of this Secheonji didn't leave SCJ for good, they go back and forth.

There are also people that left SCJ and others that are in SCJ and try to get people out of SCJ and into Secheonji.

This situation makes Lee Man-hee furious.

So, there are imitations of SCJ and the small Secheonji.

When Lee Man-hee passes away, there will certainly be internal divisions.

First, there is the faction of the ex-wife.

There is the wife faction.

Then, there is the nephew that was included into the family register. The faction of the adoptive son.

These two groups may band together.

Then, the second wife.

Kim Nam-hee.

Now she has lost her position and she is fighting with Lee Man-hee over an alleged embezzlement.

She has left SCJ but she is eagerly trying to go back and scrape together the supporters that she still have in SCJ.

She keeps disclosing facts on YouTube.

This is the faction of the second wife, Kim Nam-hee.

Then, here and there, there are some subordinates that want to take over their own areas.

The faction of the Indipendents.

Gwangju and Daejeon are making themselves independent.

So there are a few mid-sized divisions and other tiny, scattered Shincheonjis.

So maybe in the future there will be many agile, small Shincheonjis more difficult to fight.

H: Now SCJ is receiving a lot of public attention and the headquarters can easily stand the pressure, but for very small groups it wouldn't be that easy...

BSW: But you know, it's because the assets of SCJ are worth 550 billion won [more than 450 million USD]

H: Let's talk a moment about money.

BSW: According to the general meeting of January 2020, the budget of the headquarters was 95 billion.

More precisely 94 billion 998 million won.

Then the 12 tribes: 180 billion.

H: The 12 tribes together.

BSW: Yes, together.

The properties: there are 1529 buildings worth 274 billion500 million.

H: It's enormous.

BSW: So, in total 550billion

H: In what name is all this?

BSW: The rule is that they have to be in SCJ or Lee Man-hee's name.

So, if one wants to leave SCJ must give up on a lot of money.

H: It's such a huge loss... 550 billion...

BSW: Even Kim Nam-hee, she left but now she is struggling to go back. She wants at least part of it.

H: At the end of the day, they are figthting to get their own profit. It's mafia style.

BSW: There are also people that invested in SCJ, the capital is made of private investments and SCJ investments together, so there are cases like Kim Nam-hee’s: 'I generously contributed to its growth.'

H: It's kind of a multilevel, I have contributed and now I want the capital back.

BSW: It's a complicate situation, not easy to grasp.

It is so intricate and hard to estimate.

Actually they are now investigating who contributed and how much, what share they have and these kind of matters.

They are fighting against each other, so if it begins to frail everything will be exposed.

H: Listening to these things, it becomes clear it is just a business.

BSW: If it wasn’t to make money, who would do that?

H: You said once that there are 250 thousand members, if each of them only offers 10 thousand won per month the income is 2 billion 500 million each month.

BSW: In the first trimester they can make an effort, let's say 100 thousand won... 25 billion.

H: I should hurry and make up a religion, instead of this unproductive Fact Check.

BSW: And in some special occasion they mobilize people.

It's free, they don't incur into any expense.

And the wage of a person that has worked for 30 years is 2 million won.

In the name of God they make believers to work unpaid.

They increase their influence through this highly efficient and low cost system.

H: This system of the shared efforts is awful.

Lastly, this is really the last one.Would you say a few words to SCJ believers? On how they can go out?

BSW: Maybe you can't get out.

It is extremely difficult to get out by yourself.

It takes courage.

Don't let your whole life to be wasted.

Get out first, and then you can receive a compensation.

In the Seosan Branch of Daejeon District Court, a case was won for the first time.

Since he was deceived into throwing away his youth for SCJ, he won the case.

So, for the many people that can't leave SCJ even if they want to, and stayed for years, SCJ was held partly responsible.

I pray that you can go back to the society soon.

H: I had no idea. He really won the case?

BSW: Yes, last January.

This year.

[On-screen text: The court: SCJ 'plot' recruitment violates the constitutional law

SCJ prosecutor: he has given his whole youth. The court decides in favour

The court: SCJ 'plot' recruitment violates the constitutional law

SCJ prosecutor: he has given his whole youth. The court decides in favour

The court: SCJ 'plot' recruitment violates the constitutional law

SCJ prosecutor: he has given his whole youth. The court decides in favour]

H: This January, January 2020

Lately you are extremely busy, it's the most hectic time for you, you are everywhere

BSW: One last thing... From now on I will only deal with foreign news.

As it seems like not many people can explain this complicated situation to foreign reporters, and the problem of SCJ aroused some interest, from now on I will be devoted to that.

So this is my last interview for a national media.

H: This extremely busy man came just because I so desperately clung to him.

We got some very precious and accurate information about SCJ today.

Thank you everyone for watching.

Original video (Korean): https://youtu.be/T871YYmszpg

Contents:

0:00 Introducing Byeon Sang-wook

4:25 Definition of heresy and pseudo-religion, how they are different

8:55 Main heresies and pseudo in Korea

11:38 The peculiarities that made SCJ problematic during the Covid emergency

15:12 Possible connections between SCJ and Choi Tae-Min; the creation of SCJ doctrine

19:23 Assumptions about the future of SCJ after LMH; divisions within SCJ

21:45 SCJ assets

24:24 For the first time an ex-member of SCJ received compensation

Disclaimer! I am neither a native korean speaker nor a professional translator and all the English subtitles and translations are by no means official. They are just part of my personal research on SCJ that I want to share with you.